Fred Thompson’s speech
was one of the biggest piles of horse feces I’ve seen in years, and almost had me clawing my eyes out. I was talking in CoH last night with a friend about watching the speeches as I was listening to Lieberman’s (big pile of meh, but funny to see Republicans cheering for global warming; I bet they felt dirty aftwerwards) and he told me “Don’t listen to Thompson’s speech, it will make your head explode.” How bad could it be, I wondered…and dove in.
Wow, it was so bad it prompted me to actually go by it line by line, and comment directly on many of them here. Enjoy my annoyance & please forgive or kindly direct me to links of counter evidence, I’m not exactly a trained political correspondent:
We do so while taking a different view of our country than that of the other party.
Listening to them you’d think that we were in the middle of a great depression; that we are down, disrespected and incapable of prevailing against challenges facing us.
We know that we have challenges … always have, always will.
But we also know that we live in the freest, strongest, most generous and prosperous nation in the history of the world and we are thankful.
I’m sure I can find non-Democrats willing to admit (are those guys non-Dems? I don’t have the time to dig each of them up.) that we are in a recession, not a depression. This is just him twisting/stretching the truth. Note: Claiming that ‘we can do anything because we are Americans’ is a nice platitude and all, but it doesn’t actually do anything. We are the bestest people in the whole world, evar! Good way to start us off! Although the prosperous thing, not so much in the last few years huh Fred? Good one! *slaps knee*
And strongest? Glad we don’t use the strength of the dollar to measure that!
Speaking of the vice presidential nominee, what a breath of fresh air Governor Sarah Palin is.
Is she also a ‘tall drink of water’?
She is from a small town, with small town values, but that’s not good enough for those folks who are attacking her and her family.
I don’t know what ‘small town values’ means? Does it mean having an administrator do most of you work for you as Mayor? Does it mean firing people without reason and almost getting yourself into a recall fight over it?
Does it mean inheriting a city with zero debt, and leaving it with 22 million? Hmm, this reminds me of a president we all know and love!
Or does it just mean having lots of babies and fighting against abortion? I suspect that’s what this is code for. But really, they say it uncoded all the time, I don’t see a reason for the dressing.
Some Washington pundits and media big shots are in a frenzy over the selection of a woman who has actually governed rather than just talked a good game on the Sunday talk shows and hit the Washington cocktail circuit. Well, give me a tough Alaskan Governor who has taken on the political establishment in the largest state in the Union — and won — over the beltway business-as-usual crowd any day of the week.
The cocktail party thing is raw bull, unless he considers that the definition of his own job. And I’d really like to see the stats on who goes on more talk shows. Didn’t McCain just make his 13th Leno appearance or something? Letterman? SNL? Whatever.
Oh. Mah. gawd! He did not just call Alaska the “largest state in the Union” like that means ANYTHING in the sense we are talking about? Sure, it might cover the most land, but it only has what, 670k people? That’s barely 130k more than the town I live in, and MUCH less if we count suburbs. Is our (Portland,OR) Mayor qualified to be Vice President (and, by extension, president)?
There must be a name for this particular logical fallacy of attempting to trick people by equating the size of the state with it being as difficult to govern as a state with a large population…someone, anyone?
By the way..what does ‘business as usual’ mean to you Fred? Is it lobbying? Because she worked for a Stevens’ 527 group. I’m not a political expert or anything, but isn’t that some kind of lobbyist group?
Does it mean pork? Because she was for the ‘bridge to nowhere’ before she was against it. And she kept the money after that project was canned…I’d like to see what she actually did with it.
Let’s be clear … the selection of Governor Palin has the other side and their friends in the media in a state of panic. She is a courageous, successful, reformer, who is not afraid to take on the establishment. She has run a municipality and she has run a state.
See above on the municipality bit. She has run a state for 2 years (not counting whatever he did in the state legislature, which everyone likes to ignore) which, for congress, translates to Sunday cocktail parties right Fred? So, if dealing with events on a National level is a cocktail party, what is running something the size of a small city? A kegger?
YES I know this is not a direct comparision and thus not quite valid, but you see what I’m getting at. Obama, at the very very least, has been thinking about the “big issues” for much longer than her (see: law school, public service history, etc.), and actually putting some of that thinking to work for 2 years. She has been rolling in oil money and…whatever else Alaska deals with (Sorry Alaskans, I’m not familiar with you yet!)
At least he didn’t try to say she commanded Alaska’s National Guard (she doesn’t, not in the sense Pawlenty wanted her to), or mention Alaska’s proximity to Russia.
They took him to the Hanoi Hilton, where he lapsed in and out of consciousness for days. He was offered medical care for his injuries if he would give up military information in return.
John McCain said “No”.
I wonder what the famous picture of him in Gai Lam military hospital in Vietnam is then? I wonder what medical care he was praising on his radio broadcasts while a prisoner? Did Fred even do basic fact checking for his speech?
How long did John say “no” for? Not very long:
After being periodically slapped around for “three or four days” by his captors who wanted military information from him, McCain called for an officer on his fourth day of captivity. He told the officer, “O.K., I’ll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital.” -U.S. News and World Report, May 14, 1973 article written by former POW John McCain
(Is this article BS? I’ve seen the quote floating around a bit and don’t have access to the resources to fact check it?)
“Demands for military information were accompanied by threats to terminate my medical treatment if I [McCain] did not cooperate. Eventually, I gave them my ship’s name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant.” Page 193-194, Faith of My Fathers by John McCain
We can at least trust John’s own words though, right?
When his captors wanted the names of other pilots in his squadron, John gave them the names of the offensive line of the Green Bay Packers. Whenever John was returned to his cell — walking if he could, dragged if he couldn’t — as he passed his fellow POWs, he would call out to them.
Maybe this is true, but he certainly violated the Military Code and gave up other information he was obligated not to as a soldier.
“Demands for military information were accompanied by threats to terminate my medical treatment if I [McCain] did not cooperate. Eventually, I gave them my ship’s name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant.” Page 193-194, Faith of My Fathers by John McCain
I think all you are allowed to give is Name,Rank,Serial # or something right?
6. Code of Conduct V.
a. When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.
Right.
Now, being a POW certainly doesn’t qualify anyone to be President.
So true Fred, so true. I will give you credit for this single line.
But it does reveal character.
Right. And, not to be harsh, but John caved. He did. That’s that and it’s documented, sorry folks. He’s a great/brave man and he served our country and all that, but I’m not sure he’s technically a “hero”. Heroes are people who don’t cave right? I’d have to agree with a post I saw on a website somewhere: he’s a “survivor”, not a “hero”. Let’s not dishonor the men (and women?) who were tortured, and did not cave, and there justly called heroes but grouping John with them.
He has been to Iraq eight times since 2003.
He went seeking truth, not publicity.
Then how come he either a) didn’t know about the safety conditions there or b) tried to lie to the American people about Petreus driving around in an un-armored humvee. That’s a pretty direct lie or some pretty stupid ignorance (as has been pointed out by many already).
This man, John McCain is not intimidated by what the polls say or by what is politically safe or popular.
Right. That’s why he suddenly started kissing the ass of major religious figures, backpedaling on his previous position.
That’s why he’s changed his views on abortion to tow the party line
For years, members of Congress, Republican and Democrat alike, have gouged the taxpayer with secret earmark spending.
Well, he has never sought an earmark.
Direct, bold faced lie. We know he’s taken at least one. And really, where there is one … there are probably more.
Sure, you can dress it up in semantics and try not call it an earmark, that’s what politicians do.
In 1993, when I was thinking of running for the Senate, I went to John for advice. He convinced me I could help make a difference for our country.
I won that election, and with Republican control of Congress, we reformed welfare.
We balanced the budget.
And we began rebuilding our military.
Am I totally retarded for thinking he is totally retarded for claiming that congress is solely responsible for the windfall & improvements of the Clinton years? Better people than I can give much better arguments than me against this..but it sounds like insanity to me.
I think this was the point where I heard my brain exploding. I could deal with the POW nail being pounded over again…pow pow pow pew pew pew pow POW POW! But this just seemed a bit much.
The respect he is given around the world is not because of a teleprompter speech designed to appeal to American critics abroad, but because of decades of clearly demonstrated character and statesmanship.
I’m not sure that insulting a telepromter does anything here – does anyone not use a teleprompter for major speeches anymore? I honestly don’t know – anyone?
Mmm hhmm. Character like he demonstrated in the Keating 5 scandal, which is bound to draw respect and admiration to him. Character like what it takes to leave the wife who remained faithful to you while you wer a PoW for a rich beauty queen, then ask that new wife to pay for the previous wife’s medical care (I’m assuming it’s her money – he didn’t have any then right? Or did he…). That takes balls. Character! Thanks for reminding me Fred.
To deal with these challenges the Democrats present a history making nominee for president.
History making in that he is the most liberal, most inexperienced nominee to ever run for President. Apparently they believe that he would match up well with the history making, Democrat controlled Congress. History making because it’s the least accomplished and most unpopular Congress in our nation’s history.
Most inexperienced? Really? OK, I’ll play your game. Who’s a president, also from Illinois, let’s make him a Republican, just for kicks. He had TWO years in the House of Reps (not even the Senate!) and then went on to a …decent presidency. Who was it?
Lincoln.
Next!
I will agree that the current Democrat run congress has been pretty douchebag-y though as a whole unit.
Together, they would take on these urgent challenges with protectionism, higher taxes and an even bigger bureaucracy.
(Referring to Obama)
Protectionism: if you are pro-America you probably support this to a degree right? Do you want all our jobs shipped overseas? Then you are probably a protectionist to some degree. Next.
Higher Taxes: As of June 11 (and I’ve seen other comparisions siting roughly the same performance), Obama is only raising taxes (on indidividuals and families!) if you make over 227k. Yes, McCain is apparently cutting them for everyone, because he thinks money grows on magical pork trees but, to be fair, Obama is giving the biggest break to people making less than 112k. Which is most of us…
He will raise taxes on those making over 227k (negligible) and substantially on thoseo making over 603k. Isn’t that just repealing Bush’s pointless tax cuts (which obviously benefitted the economy tremendously!) though?
Bigger bureaucracy: I don’t have anything to say here, as it’s a pretty complicated question and pretty damn general. I’d love to see someone go through all their policies (assuming McCain has made his explicit by now) and see if any real deductions & comparisons can be made here.
We need a President who understands that you don’t make citizens prosperous by making Washington richer, and you don’t lift an economic downturn by imposing one of the largest tax increases in American history.
Uh. Are we on the same channel Fred? In the same reality even?
Now our opponents tell you not to worry about their tax increases.
They tell you they are not going to tax your family.
No, they’re just going to tax “businesses”! So unless you buy something from a “business”, like groceries or clothes or gasoline … or unless you get a paycheck from a big or a small “business”, don’t worry … it’s not going to affect you.
There is some meat to this, but mostly it’s just rabble rousing imho.
Obama is actually giving substantial cuts to small businesses, which tend to get plowed under the big, monopoly style businesses that get all crazy under Republican “non-protectionism” but I haven’t found his big business policy, so he could be raising those.
John McCain cannot raise his arms above his shoulders.
He cannot salute the flag of the country for which he sacrificed so much. Tonight, as we begin this convention week, yes, we stand with him.
Holy jumping baby Jesus in a dirty diaper.
Thank you for that non-so-subtle “John McCain is the bestest Americommando ever!” line Fred. Truly a high point in the American oratory tradition.
Hello.
I would like to put a link to your site on my blog roll if you want to do the same for mine. It would be a good way to build up both of our readerships.
thank you.
Nicely done analysis. I couldn’t even watch that sleazebag on Law And Order, so I commend your fair-mindedness.
I must admit- I’m still getting used to the whole “Republicans against protectionism” thing. Because, you know, I’ve taken a history class. Are there any contradictions left to be made?
Also- I’m gonna go into attack mode (so the Obama campaign doesn’t have to- you’re welcome, guys), and say that some sort of periodical psychological check up report be provided on McCain. Being in a prison camp would fuck me up for the rest of my life, that’s for sure. See what I’m sayin?
Alright, brother. I considered rebutting your post in much the same fashion that you provided stinging rebuke to lines from Fred Thompson’s speech, but I frankly don’t have the energy and little believe that I’d make any headway in getting you to reconsider some of your positions.
All that being said, though, I couldn’t — just couldn’t leave without assailing your idea of the “Military Code” and what it means to be a “hero,” and (most blasphemous of all) your concept of “caving.”
I am a 15-year member of the active-duty military. I have served (repeatedly) in both theaters of war — Iraq and Afghanistan — in addition to other, special backwater hellholes in which people reside whose only driving force in life is to deprive me and you of ours. I have attended and graduated from all number of survival courses and schools in which I was taught how to resist interrogation and torture. Consequently, brother: I speak with authority on this topic, whereas you most brilliantly did not.
You quoted Article 5 of the Code of Conduct. To wit: When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability.
Please note the “to the utmost of my ability” part. It is cogent to my argument. We in the uniformed service of our Nation are enjoined to resist questioning as much as we can, but we must also — in a solitude you absolutely cannot imagine — determine for ourselves how beneficial absolute refusal would be for ourselves, our fellow prisoners, our unit and service, and our Nation. There is both art and skill in “stringing it along,” and reluctantly refusing to give information that would otherwise — in the real sense — be benign. Such information may include the name of a parent unit, etc., as you question McCain for divulging.
Consider: you are a prisoner and being tortured for information. You are being forced to proffer information; refusing to do so will result not only in YOUR torture, but also the torture or killing of Joey in the cell next to you, or perhaps even the entire complement of fellow prisoners. Would you just clam up? It is not “caving” as you so blithely suggest to buy one’s self and one’s fellow countrymen time. Especially when you place the conduct in a band of over FIVE YEARS.
Questioning McCain’s “heroism” and instead malevolently reducing it to just “survival” is insulting. For FIVE AND ONE HALF YEARS, for every single moment of his life, he was imprisoned, tortured, beaten, separated. Perhaps your concept of five years is just taking a little too long to earn your Bachelors. Consider how many memories you have of that time. Consider how many parties you attended, how many conversations you had, how many dates you enjoyed, how many steak dinners you ate, how many newspapers you read… and replace ALL of them with but a cell barely large enough to contain your shattered body.
And that he refused early release somehow never made it into your well-considered analysis of McCain’s heroism.
Apart from all politics, I will defend John McCain’s status as a “hero” until my dying breath. Just as I would a serviceman that “caved”. Just as I would you, despite proffering an opinion inexcusably ignorant of what service to the country in the face of unimaginably horrifying adversity really, truly means.
Hope is itself a species of happiness, and, perhaps, the chief happiness which this world affords: but, like all other pleasures immoderately enjoyed, the excesses of hope must be expiated by pain; and expectations improperly indulged must end in disappointment.SamuelJohnsonSamuel Johnson
Thank you for your well thought out response Justin.
We may not agree, but I deeply appreciate your ability to debate my points without resorting to insult and mud slinging.
Yes, I clearly lack a military background and therefore cannot speak with authority on those issues. Does that mean I should ignore them? Trust in my elected “betters” and blindly follow their decisions? I hope not.
I realize my questioning of McCains label as a “hero” will offend some and frankly, I’m not real excited to talk about it BUT he’s gone and made in a (if not “the”) freaking central “issue” (big quote-y hands here) of the campaign, like it somehow qualifies him for president.
What he did took a lot of guts, and it something that probably the majority of people wouldn’t have made it through (although I do actually have a high degree of faith in the human spirit, and believe that almost anyone can achieve greatness when they are truly tested as long as they believe in something, be it a vision of America, or dreams of seeing a family again, or a god or whatever). I’m not denying that.
I’m specifically questioning the much thrown about term “war hero”. There are other, much farther fringe folks who go even farther. I’m not going there, but I’m willing to at least ask the questions.
Speaking of there, what do you as a military man say about the site in question? Is it all just a bunch of BS, or do they bring up some valid questions? MSM and even most bloggers are staying far away from this topic, so I have little to go on.
As for the code of conduct, I apologize if my reading is too literal (Maybe I’ve been brainwashed into ‘literalism’ by all this creation vs. evolution stuff in the media lately! Sorry, too easy to pass up ;p). As a military outsider, all I have to go on are the bylaws.
In particular what I’ve been looking for is how people have been punished (or if they were punished at all) for breaking any of these bylaws or, if they are merely suggestions. I’m also curious if he recieved different treatment than his fellow soldiers because of his father’s rank.
I know torture is horrible, you don’t have to be a military person to know that – but I have to think that you sign up for the military willing to defend your country with your life – if you’re not willing to do this then your excuses are limited. That includes being tortured. I mean, if I were to enlist in this day in age, I would kind of expect Muslim Fundamentalists to torture me if I was captured – they don’t seem to hold human life in the same high regard we, as a country, generally do.
Feel free to debate my positions as you have time, and I’ll try to respond. Unlike like many modern Americans, I enjoy a good discussion, and don’t have a problem with disagreeing with me. I’m also relatively new to the political arena, this being the first race I’ve seriously watched with this kind of scrutiny.
Also, as to being tortured for the entire the five and a half years – there is some debate as to whether he was tortured the entire time. There are two fellow PoWs on the record as saying they don’t believe that he was tortured when in one of the camps, which they were in with him….ahh here’s the quote:
March 25, 1999, The Phoenix New Times: Ted Guy and Gordon “Swede” Larson, two former POWs, who were McCain’s senior ranking officers (SRO’s), at the time McCain says he was tortured in solitary confinement, told the New Times that while they could not guarantee that McCain was not physically harmed, they doubted it.
“Between the two of us, it’s our belief, and to the best of our knowledge, that no prisoner was beaten or harmed physically in that camp [known as "The Plantation"],” Larson says. “. . . My only contention with the McCain deal is that while he was at The Plantation, to the best of my knowledge and Ted’s knowledge, he was not physically abused in any way. No one was in that camp. It was the camp that people were released from.”
Sorry to be picking nits, but politicians can do wondrous with a simple distortion, and I’m trying to be factual here.
I’m trying to track down more info on the whole “songbird” nickname, as the few bits I’ve found about it say that he had given out enough info to have been given that nickname by his peers (??). I’ll see what I can find.
@Mike: Sorry man but I’m not gunning for massive hits or anything (I don’t have ads running on my site like you do, so no reason ;0 ).
Your comment didn’t add anything to the conversation, but it seems like your site may be legit and you aren’t a spam bot, so I’ll allow it.
[...] as mentioned in my post about Fred’s speech, I’m curious about what it really means to be a “war [...]
Hi Andy,
Can’t say I agree at all with you, but I do like your approach. The thing is, if you are conservative you look at things one way, if you are liberal there is a totally different view.
Sometimes I wonder if we READ a speech not knowing who presented it, would we have a totally different view???
I too have a blog and I’m looking for “the other view”, but many times the other view comes with a real attitude and I cannot post them. I don’t get that feeling from your blog. I try to read the huffington post and daily coz, but I just cannot get past the hatred of the right.
If you have time, please take a minute to read my post on Thompson: http://www.keithjennison.com/2008/09/fred-thompsons-best-line/
I have a little different approach to my posts… short and sweet (and I must admit, conservative).
Note: Feel free to edit or nofollow the link above.
[...] Note: If you would like to read a very thoughtfull opposite view, see what Andy says on his blog here: http://onefinemess.wordpress.com/2008/09/03/fred-thompsons-speech/ [...]
Thanks for the comment Keith. I do agree that many things just look different based on which side you are sitting on – much like religion – probably the reason these are the two things you’re not supposed to talk about at work right? No middle ground?
I have to hope though there is indeed some. I don’t disagree with “all” conservative views or agree with “all” liberal ones (I’m pro death penalty for one).
I’m not fluent enough in economics to know how much water Fred’s statement about taxing business having exactly the same effect (because this is what hes is saying with that statement) as taxing people, so I won’t say much there.
I will say that, from all the Obama tax stuff I have looked through, he looks to be planning on giving great breaks to small businesses. Maybe nothing to big ones – but in my opinion they’ve gotten a little out of hand lately, and could do with a little more policing and possibly taxation.
I’m a pisser to argue with, as my wife would surely tell you, because I like to go through each point a person says and analyze it. In the case of Fred’s statement, I’d like to see what exactly he is referring to – documentation from the Obama camp on how they’ll tax business for one thing, then an economic analysis or three that looks at if the taxation from both sides really has the same effect. Without seeing those things, he’s just kind of talking out of his ass IMHO and trying to rile people up (which is, admittedly what politics is all about – sadly).
I’m on vacation in Maui at the moment, but maybe when I get home I’ll see what I can find about this issue.
[...] POW in the RS article – from a POW who didn’t break. It’s worth bringing up again my previous question (I think it was somewhere in that post) about what makes a POW a hero, and what makes one a [...]